Westcorp OVERCHARGES / Canada Lands / Storm Water Drainage .
Information related to the charges Westcorp has charged us all.
Update Jun 2 2021
Hopefully a final? update here. Our hearings have now completed. As expected we continue on our month to month lease until Aug 31 and the RTDRS is now aware of the sub metering and storm water issues. Our case today was dismissed as there was actually little of a case for us left. My stormwater has already been credited and thus I have little issue left to dispute. It did however give us a chance to be heard and educate. There are many of you left, still paying, or being asked to pay these overcharges. The RTDRS is there to help you. They like money too. $75 will get you a case and have your voice heard. There are low income options. Read the regulations below and see if your sub-metering was implemented improperly, or you're being overcharged for stormwater, you might have a case where I did not. Hearings are happening over the phone at this time. You can email me ( [email protected] ) and I can provide you my case number for reference. Good luck out there! https://www.alberta.ca/sub-meters-rental-units.aspx https://www.alberta.ca/residential-tenancy-dispute-resolution-service.aspx
Alberta Submeter Regulations
https://www.alberta.ca/sub-meters-rental-units.aspx
Update: May 19 2021
I'm Back! - Thanks for the support out there, even if it was hidden from you. I got banned from Rentcafe for the post below. One RTDRS hearing is complete, I'll enjoy this community for a little longer. :) We have another hearing more related to Stormwater charges on Jun 2nd 2021. Email [email protected] before May 31rst if you have concerns about overcharges for stormwater and would like your voice heard.
Updates: Some overlay images showing how much approximate area is being overcharged to Griesbach residents for Storm Water Drainage.
Westcorp is passing the costs for Storm Water Drainage on RED areas to the residents via Priority Sub metering. As construction continues and the green areas diminish, the costs for Storm Water Drainage will rise. There will be less people to pay, and thus the charges will become more unfair with the rest of the city. The formula "Total Bill / Total Residents" is not fair and equal with the rest of the city.
UPDATE APRIL 2021
Westcorp still refuses to address storm water overcharges on Griesbach. They do admit to the charges and maintain they are forced to overcharge for land the residents are not responsible for. My latest lease was made by head office with storm water drainage included as Westcorp was unable to calculate what a proper bill should be. There is no lot data available to make the calculation fairly with everyone else in the city. They now wish to remove storm water from this lease and are trying to pre-maturely end the lease. Westcorp is now attempting a non-renewal of my month to month lease, trying to force me out. They also appear to have disabled my access to Rentcafe. 1pm April 9th This means I can no longer update you there, and that Westcorp is actively trying to silence the storm water issue. They may have also removed previous posts. I'm unable to verify. But I'm aware that they have remained for the moment. After a call with Yardi/Rentcafe, they confirm my account was removed from the community and is technically fine on their side. I do still have an account, Westcorp has just disabled my access to the Griesbach section. A good recommendation to anyone would be to backup your billing history incase they do the same to you :) It's been swell. Included below is the notice I received that they are claiming my month to month lease ends at a fixed date, not in accordance with the act.
We have seen this tactic before? Why yes, we have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbdHbgpK51I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EXSfCEKhvg
UPDATE AUG 2020
Again another invoice without any details on how storm water charges are calculated. This time the cost has also jumped another $1.47 Stormwater fees now total $21.99 per month. All requests to have invoices updated with cost calculations have been ignored or requested to talk to Westcorp. Westcorp is using Priority as a third party to collect the charges, and points back at Priority. Cat and mouse game.
UPDATE JULY 2020
New Bill from Priority Submetering Solutions, again with drastic overcharge for stormwater. You should only be paying for the square footage of your lot. Which they can't calculate because lot(s) don't exist on the area of Griesbach.
The information provided on this website does not, and is not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available on this site are for general informational purposes only.
Where can I discuss this topic?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Edmonton/comments/dyuikj/griesbach_epcor_stormwater_drainage/
Updates:
Jan 14th 2020 - Efforts to have this issue sorted in a proper manner with the management have failed. They are still attempting to scam over 500 families, and then use lease clause scare tactics to force them to move or pay. If you would like to fight these charges please email [email protected] These charges should only be brought in on a new lease term where the lease defines the charges appropriately , or merged into a rental price increase.
Jan 2020
Dec 2019 -
Dec 6th: Local office followup from Laurie: "I wanted to provide you and update. Wanda was able to schedule a meeting with Epcor today. We are hopeful that this meeting allows us some improvement in communications and clarification for this Storm Drainage charge. I wanted to thank you for your post on Rent Cafe yesterday providing and update for the conversation you had with Wanda. We all do hope to have a positive improvement in this situation." Dec 5th: Another week with little to no update. Added another pending comment image which is still in a pending state. No updates from Wanda. Reports of local office being uncooperative. Nov 28th : Visited the local office and was unable to see the "bill" as offered on the Rentcafe forums. Was advised this was part of a bulk bill and I'd need to make an appointment. Asked for a head office number. Left a message with Wanda at Westcorp about the situation. Nov 29th: Got a call today from Wanda to help work out the situation. Wanda advised me she would post a notification to the Rentcafe site as soon as possible. She kindly asked I back off in terms of persistence on the issue for the next week or two so she could have an opportunity to address things. My understanding in they met with Canada Lands on the 28th and she would still like the opportunity to have another meeting with Epcor this week. The conversation was calm, understanding and sounded genuine, so I'm happy to let this happen. My only concern is this month's additional fees and being hassled about an outstanding balance again. I'm glad to have some progress, but my previous Westcorp experiences don't leave me comforted.
Is Westcorp attempting to silence this page?
Nov 27th 2019: It would appear new regulations have been posted to Rentcafe to allow moderation of comments to the users of the site, in what appears to be an attempt to silence our message. These regulations have been copy&pasted from another website. https://www.ailife.com/social-media-guidelines I have now confirmed that Westcorp has tried to deny at least one of my comments.
What is the storm water drainage fee?
That's a tough question but thankfully, Epcor provides lots of information about this topic, located at: https://www.epcor.com/products-services/drainage/rates-terms-and-conditions/Pages/faqs.aspx The fee is for the collection, quality enhancement and disposal of stormwater that runs off our streets and properties into the sewer system. It includes construction and maintenance of storm sewers, as well as other stormwater management/quality enhancement facilities.
How is the fee normally calculated?
Charges are calculated using property size (A), development intensity (I), and a runoff coefficient (R), based on land zoning and a city-wide monthly rate.
A x I x R x Rate = Stormwater utility charge
A: The area of the property in square metres (m2), and the proportion of the building lot area attributable to each unit for multiple units sharing a single building of property.
I: The measure of the portion of lot being used for its intended development. The development intensity factor is typically 1.0, except for properties where owners demonstrate the contribute significantly less stormwater runoff per property area to the City's land drainage system during rainfalls than other similarly-zone properties.
R: Run-off coefficient—the permeability of your lot's surface (i.e. grass versus concrete), based on land zoning.
The run-off coefficient for a single detached residential house is typically 0.50. However, depending on your property's land zoning classification, the run-off coefficient can range from 0.20 to 0.95.
Rate: The monthly charge of $0.042506 per square metre (m2).
What would this charge look like on my Epcor bill?
Does everyone else in the city pay this charge?
It would appear so far that everyone who has a defined lot in the city would pay this charge on their Epcor bill, calculated as shown above using the rate formula.
Why can't Epcor charge me directly?
Epcor is unable to charge, or charge-back your account due to a lack of area data. This is a m2 value that's defined within the City of Edmonton datasets. This can viewed on the City Maps. https://maps.edmonton.ca/map.aspx?lookingFor=Zoning Turn on Parcels. At this time the Griesbach area's where we rent properties, are two large lots. This means Epcor does not have a dataset to calculate a value to charge individually, so they sent charges for the whole lots to either CLC or Westcorp.
What is the development intensity in these lots?
At this time this is unknown. Epcor is unwilling to provide the information citing privacy regulations. Westcorp has been unwilling to provide this information thus far. All bills demonstrated so far have the typical value of 1. After a few days back and forth with Epcor, we have been informed that the only value Epcor uses for Residential Development Intensity is 1.
How much am I being charged? How often? How many m2 or sq ft.
My understanding is we are being charged $20.09 per month. Just to confirm our math is correct, lets test using the bill above. $11.52/(1*0.5*0.042506) = 542.041123606, looks good. Let use Westcorps charge. $20.09/(1*0.5*0.042506) = 945.27831365 Westcorp is charging each resident for 945m2 or 10175 sqft of storm water drainage per month. To add some perspective , the largest unit shown on Rentcafe is 1692 sqft.
How much area does my unit occupy vs what they are charging?
For most of us, less than 945m2. This tool can help answer, though with it's viewing angle might be more prone to under reporting. https://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-area-calculator-tool.htm# Zoom into your location and start plotting points There is also a great measurement tool in a service called Yardbook, but that requires a signup. To take as much yard as possible without encroaching someone else, I was at about ~450m2
How big could my lot be if this area was sub divided?
The DC2 (880) regulation does not specify a maximum or minimum lot area for this particular location. This means that lot area is not regulated by the City zoning for this location. There are regulations in this zone specify the minimum dimension of the yards of the building shall be; however, the area of a lot could vary depending on the size of the building. From Edmonton City Zoning Authority: "The zoning for your home is a DC2.880 and there are no specific site coverage maximums as you would find in other residential zones.
This is because DC2 zones are negotiated with the applicant/landowner to meet both party's requirements, and the decision was to not include the maximum site coverage's as it would require the subdivision of the entire lot into smaller lots." I posted the question who would have made the above "decision".
"It would be the decision of the landowner, supported the City and City Council who would have voted on the proposed Direct Control regulations."
https://webdocs.edmonton.ca/ZoningBylaw/DC2/DC2.htm#800/DC2_880.htm
Why don't you just pay?
This is a great question, this will differ from person to person. Personally I am more than happy to pay my bills. I've paid my rent on time for ~10 years here at Griesbach. I don't like to be in debt. That being said, I'm happy to pay my bill when they are legitimate and the people charging me are not lying or using tactics to force people to move or pay-up. Westcorp stated that Epcor had a billing error, while Epcor is lacking data to make the charge, this is not an error. The land owner in this case has opted to not have the land subdivided. This has been confirmed by the city zoning authority. In this case Epcor is unable to bill the residents appropriately. The charges were delivered to the landowner, not the residents. Westcorp is attempting to use Tenant Chargebacks to recoup the costs, including land the residents do not occupy. A tenant charge-back would be applicable in cases like lost keys, or repairing damage caused by resident. Schedule U of the Bulk Water Agreement, as mentioned in the memos does not appear to cover these charges in any way. Westcorp also originally stated that charges would vary based on the household and that the fee would be nominal. Now after getting a $60 invoice we find out, it's now a fixed fee, and this fee is 2-3x what people around the city , even Rosslyn are paying. They will attempt to treat the unpaid value as rent and then attempt to evict claiming this as unpaid rent. My attempt to have any response from Westcorp took 2 weeks and came at the end of the day on a Friday. The reply only confirmed the above findings and no other concerns have been addressed. Posts to Rentcafe go unanswered by Westcorp staff. Posts to Rentcafe letting other residents know about this issue have been denied by the moderator. Rather than address the issue, they wish to silence it. Normally fees like this would be discussed at the beginning of the term, parties could agree on the details before signing, none of this was done. Just pay up, or we tack it on to your rent. Those same signed agreements are then twisted for use in situations like this, and a previous $25 cheque fee that was implemented for anyone who refused to pay online.
The overcharges as demonstrated above and the tactics used need to be addressed. In this situation they can re-work the leasing agreements or raise the rent to cover the costs at the term intervals. They can also work with the city and CLC to have the lot data input into the city datasets so that Epcor could charge us instead of them. To me this is the right answer. It bothers me that for a 12 month lease, families are now missing a family member for 2-3 days extra in a year, making minimum wage. 12m*$20=$240 storm water fees. 8h*8h*$15=$240 , Going to need 3 days to cover for deductions.
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